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Sunday, December 28, 2008


Count Dante is a familiar name in the short history of the MA in the USA. From about 1965 to his death in 1975 he was regarded as the black sheep of American karate.

He started out as a promising karateka in Robert Trias' "United States Karate Association" and he was an important figure in the early development of karate in America's Midwest. However, after he left (or was expelled from) Trias' organisation it was felt that he had "gone wrong"" target="_top">Massad Ayoob has written, " developed an obscene fascination with the most brutal part of the martial arts."

Dante promoted America's first full contact tournament as far back as 1967, sold his booklet " The world's Deadliest Fighting Secrets" with the assistance of a big, over the top advertising campaign in comics and magazines and generally tried to put himself over as "The Crown Prince of Death".

His style was designed specifically for street combat and so this may simply be a reflection of how society itself has grown more violent over the years. Unfortunately, little technical material has been printed on the Dante style, but basically it seems to be a close quarters system (The legs are mainly for transportation, Dante would say) which stress smashing, gouging, and joint breaking techniques. Even more than technique however, Count Dante stressed the importance of attitude. Page 12 of his book (1968) reads: ...

" ...Special note: Proper emphasis on courage, aggressiveness, and actual training hall and street application of effective fighting techniques, is the most serious lacking segment in modern day karate and kung fu schools... most karate schools place little emphasis on courage or "guts fighting" and aggressiveness and usually even frown on it. They also do not permit body contact in their self-defence and sparring practice. This makes for a safe training hall but does little to help develop the body to withstand strike punishment and actually hinders the student when they are forced to use it on the street.
Remember, the only true test of a fighting man is what he can do, and no more. Form practice, sparring, self defence practice and brick breaking are meaningless if the man cannot withstand the burden of the 'real thing'..."
The backbone of the Dante system was his emphasis on mental attitude. In contrast with many Oriental concepts of "mind like placid lake"..."Mind like the moon", of being calm, cleaning the mind of all thought and emotion prior to combat, Dante believed that you should 'psych' yourself up with 100% aggressiveness and viciousness, attacking in a furious and unrestrained manner. In 'Defense Combat' Oct 1976, Bill Aguair was asked to define the Dante system and how it differed from other systems.

"It isn't the techniques of the system, it's the attitude - and that is a 7 to 10 second drive to the wall, completely going in for one thing and one thing only - to get the opponent down and out and everything over as quickly as possible."
Dante then advocated attacking (or counter attacking) at full speed, exploding at the enemy with total ruthlessness and ferocity. Again Aguair has some sage advice.

"A streetfight is something quick, it doesn't last 11 minutes. A fight in the street is one jam. People don't break it up into rounds, you know... If you're gonna swing, you either do that, go all the way or don't do anything at all. I'm not advocating fighting at the drop of a hat, but when you gotta go, you gotta go. I mean it, it doesn't take much for you to throw a kick and try to pull it so you don't hurt somebody bad, and then the guy catches your leg and knocks you down - your head hits the kerbstone and now you've got a widow! The streets are pretty bad!" (Defense Combat - Oct 1976)
In line with Dante's ideas on situational self-defence, he would train people to fight in barstools and members of his school would smoke cigarettes and drink beer because, well, that's what they'd probably be doing if a fight started.

Unlike many people who practise the MA and develop new theories as regards self defence, Dante's system was founded on real events, many of Dante's people were violent criminals, mobsters and streetgang members who meet and use violence in their everyday life. According to Ayoob in his book "The Truth About Self-Protection" :

"The Count's disciples, who tended to come from a hard core criminal word, used it (a previously described technique) frequently. They left some people blind out there but were never injured themselves... Under such circumstances self-defense techniques tend to become refined very quickly - necessity being the mother of invention - there being no room for error. There are no recorded instances of Dante's people complaining that something didn't work, so we must assume that they were well satisfied that what he taught worked.
Learn from the outlaws: Dante's system was designed for the sort of person you'll face, someone who'll hurt you without the slightest compunction."
Dante died in 1975, shortly before he died he made the following statement to Massad Ayoob in 'Black Belt' march 1976.

"They resented Bruce Lee when he was alive. The martial arts people made him a legend after he died because they weren't afraid of him anymore."
And he spoke too of the legendary Samurai Musashi,

"Look up his history. Musashi is the hero of Japan, yet he murdered innocent men, women and children for money. He was a 'stone killer' (assassin) They despised him when he was alive and canonised him when he was dead. Mark my words, that's what they'll do to me"


  1. how come there is like only 2 pictures of these two guy together? If they were so close, how come there is just two pictures and one looks like aguir got his short ass owned?

  2. "The Count's disciples, who tended to come from a hard core criminal word, used it (a previously described technique) frequently. They left some people blind out there but were never injured themselves... Under such circumstances self-defense techniques tend to become refined very quickly - necessity being the mother of invention - there being no room for error. There are no recorded instances of Dante's people complaining that something didn't work, so we must assume that they were well satisfied that what he taught worked.

  3. Like you Creeden dont listen to this fake, hes a nobody like webb and Ashida kiM

  4. I am the real John Creeden and he is not. I know the truff when I write it. DAnte is alive and well and living in Potsylvania with Boris and natasha. He drinks with a flying skull.
    i am the true l;ineage of all that is don and tay. I even kicked the aguiar boy in his butthole when he bent over to make me an offer i easily refused. i am a legend, i am the kick, i take all comers, i fight dirty if i show up, but i wont' because you are all fakes, i will go anywahere to fight, if you send me a plane tocket, but make it now refindabel because i might make a chump of you and cash it in because i like fighting so much.

    i am the king of shyte, i am john creeden iii, and billy iii is my lover we have so much in common. we used to circle jerk togetehr under a full moon to call the spirit of dante to teach us his dim mak secrets which we never learned because bill's belly kept getting in the way.

    i move like the wind, toward the closet bar to get a beer, i need no practice, i work out with mug to lips, and tell tales of all my conquests i dream about.

    dem guyz in chicago don' know nuthin. they are jealous theu deserted dante and we p[aid him opff to come to Fall River and then he made Bill jr the master of his defunked system that we learned to do badly. I never lost a fight in the stree because i never had one. i never will. that flyd webb guy tried to steel our thunder, he would not pay us for being assholes so i tols billy to take him to court, i gave him 50 bucks to do it he was short on the legal fees for my cousin eddie who.

    I am the real deal, no aguiar, he was just a punk kid who did not know dante. I used to brin ghim his pipe and slippers. i would fetch fdante his paper, go get his condoms for him to bang the waitress at the corner diner.

    i am john creeden iii and no one can mess with me because i will never be avaialble to mess with. i will kick your ass online and in my mind while no one looks at my sight because i caint spel and i cannot rite.

  5. Dude you have to much GAY TIME on your hands. You are definetely a gay supporter of Webb,Shepperd and Kim Dywer and Felkoff.

    P.S. If its such bullshit then why does everybody want it.

    And nobody comes to fight, They want an MMA match were a refree can pull me off of them. I want a fight, I'll put it all on the line. but you and them dont want that.

    And thats why your pussies. So suck floyds cock.

  6. who said anybody wants anything. you guys got nothing. everybody here in Providence thinks you are all wackjobs any how. dude i just like messing with you because i know you will reply to anybody. you like the attention, don't you, you just a fat old man who maybe once knew how to fight but could not hanlde the the real competition out there today. what you got? nothing!
    you don't even have a rep as a street fighter in fall river. you have a reputation as a big mouth who hides. read that, no rep.

    we don't like you here in Providence either man. i hope that guy does catch you with the video cam so we can all watch it on youtibe and laugh harder than we already do. guess what, nobody cares about dante. this is just you and me talking on a lonly page on the internet. MMA guys get thousands of hits, you guys don't even have a website except for this sad ass blog. I would rathr watch you pleading for mercy on youtube. i hope that guy is real.we know who you are in providence and you are a major joke. and talk about gay? be serious. you can stand up straight now, your man billy III has left the building.

  7. And who are you in Providence, alot of us would like to know. You talk alot , but also you hide alot.

    Considering that Creeden lives in Providence all his life. I bet he would love to know you.

    But again Creeden these people hide they have no balls.

  8. Hey, how do I tell who is who if all you guys are anonymous? Including me?

    I bet this is one guy trying to make a controversy...I don't see but one real name here. If that person really exists. Is it even a martial artists.

    Time to move on....nothing to see here.

  9. Because Floyd Webb supporters are weasels who won't expose themselves like real men. This is why Ashida Kim and Barron Shepperd are friends and supporters. WEASELS HANG WITH WEASELS.

    Everyone knows my name, and people know the truth, thats why I have 5 millions more views than Floyd Webb.

    And if you dont like it dont read it, its your choice.

    The only person who writes to him self is Ashida Kim, with a monthy income of 300 dollars a month, thats all he can afford to do,lol

  10. You guys are all assholes. But this Creeden fellow is the biggest one of all. He will never fight. He most likely has never fought.

  11. Do you have any information that is not already avalible on John's site. he seem to have the best collection of work on Count Dante. I might be willing to buy something.

  12. No I'll pass anyone affiliated with Floyd Webb is a no no, Ive made that mistake already.

    And theirs plenty of info dating back to the fifties on threw, sorry

  13. I am associated with myself. I am just looking for collectible items.

    You sound like a nut, you pass up good money. I will not make another attempt to contact to you. Your loss.

  14. No your the nut associating himself with a thief and liar like Floyd Webb.

    And no I dont like Reubels, I like Euros,lol

    Its not my loss at all. Funny your calling me a nut, I never met a smart Russian, nor a European either.

  15. Who do we contact to do a story about this for ABC News Online? We are doing a series on Martial Arts and would like to talk to someone about Count Dante. Who is the person we should email?